Kreatiin
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Kreatiin seob vett, kofeiin viib veed välja kehast.
Lihtne – ära tarbi neid koos.
Siiski tundub, et kogu kofeiin anti ühes doosis ja koos kreatiiniga. Kui nii, siis see tähendaks siiski, et kogu kofeiin oleks vaja tavalistel inimestel korraga saadaKofeiini negatiivne mõju püsis veel ööpäev hiljem nii et ajastamine ilmselt ei mängi rolli, välja arvatud see et kohe laksu järel tõenäoliselt on kofeiini plussid suuremad, miinused võtavad aega.
Kreatiin seob vett, kofeiin viib veed välja kehast.Lihtne – ära tarbi neid koos.
Vesi ei mängi rolli. Kreatiin aitab lihastel kiiresti lõdvestuda, kofeiin blokeerib selle efekti.No selle minu uuringu järgi ei blokeerinud kofeiin midagi – CRE+COF andis paremaid tulemusi kui ainult CRE või CON grupid ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21207054 ). Ehk kofeiini lisamine ei näidanud negatiivset mõju, hoopis positiivset. Pigem ma järeldan, et sinu poolt toodud uuringu puhul oli kofeiini mõju selles, et laadimisprotsess oli häiritud ning keha kreatiinitase lihtsalt oluliselt ei tõusnud.
Minu pakutud uuringu põhjal toimus kreatiini laadimine ilma probleemideta ning kofeiini mõju ainult võimendas hilisemat kehalist võimekust kuna kreatiin tase oli juba kehas kõrge ning laadimisprotsess lõppenud.
Minu uuring on 15a uuem ka.
” srcset=”/uploads/emoticons/biggrin@2x.png 2x” width=”20″ height=”20″> – ja tundub, et vist veidi paremini tehtud. 
– aga kuna mul täies mahus uuringut pole siis ma muidugi ainult spekuleerin.“”Our results provide further evidence to support the
assertion that the ergogenic effects of creatine on highintensity
performance are not negatively influenced by
acute caffeine ingestion. This determinate finding is similar
to that of a previous study (Doherty et al. 2002). Additionally,
Izquierdo et al. (2002) and Ziegenfuss et al.
(1998) have demonstrated that BW did not increase in
conjunction with creatine supplementation, which was
likely due to participants engaging in regular physical
activity. Conversely, a single dose of caffeine ingestion did
not interfere with the effects of short-term creatine loading
on performance. This result did not correspond with previous
studies (Hespel et al. 2002; Vanakoski et al. 1998).
Although the effects of caffeine ingestion on short-term,
intense exercise are not well understood, previous studies
have documented that maximal anaerobic power (Anselme
et al. 1992) and intermittent sprinting ability (Schneiker
et al. 2006) were enhanced by caffeine ingestion. This was
supported by the results of our study.”
“
Minu arust on siiski veidi vähe kummagi meie argumendi toetuseks, et lõplikke järeldusi teha. Vaatan, kas viitsin veel tuhnida netiavarustes ja vaba aega kulutaa.
” srcset=”/uploads/emoticons/tongue@2x.png 2x” width=”20″ height=”20″>Ei midagi teaduslikku, puhas praktika. Kasutades kreatiini laadimisega, siis kohvi joomine vähendab tuntavalt kreatiinist saadavat kasu. VÄGA TUNTAVALT, peaaegu isegi nullib selle, kui juua kohvi suuremas koguses (mitu tassi päevas).
Nii on see minu puhul vähemalt.
Ei midagi teaduslikku, puhas praktika. Kasutades kreatiini laadimisega, siis kohvi joomine vähendab tuntavalt kreatiinist saadavat kasu. VÄGA TUNTAVALT, peaaegu isegi nullib selle, kui juua kohvi suuremas koguses (mitu tassi päevas).Nii on see minu puhul vähemalt.
Kuidas sa seda tavaliselt võtsid? Kas kreatiini võtsid kohvist eraldi või suhteliselt vahetult? Milline laadimine sul tollal käsil oli? Mis kreatiini kasutasid?
Faktoreid nii kuradi palju
” srcset=”/uploads/emoticons/biggrin@2x.png 2x” width=”20″ height=”20″> . Üks asi on teada tulemust, teine asi on välja uurida, mis ja kuidas täpselt asja tulemust muutis. Mis kogustes hakkas mis halvasti mõjuma, jne?Kuidas sa seda tavaliselt võtsid? Kas kreatiini võtsid kohvist eraldi või suhteliselt vahetult? Milline laadimine sul tollal käsil oli? Mis kreatiini kasutasid?
Faktoreid nii kuradi palju
” srcset=”/uploads/emoticons/biggrin@2x.png 2x” width=”20″ height=”20″> . Üks asi on teada tulemust, teine asi on välja uurida, mis ja kuidas täpselt asja tulemust muutis. Mis kogustes hakkas mis halvasti mõjuma, jne?Igatepidi olen proovinud. Kui tahad tulemus, mida ka tulemuseks nimetada, siis ära kohvi torgi kreatiinikuuri ajal, lihtne.
Igatepidi olen proovinud. Kui tahad tulemus, mida ka tulemuseks nimetada, siis ära kohvi torgi kreatiinikuuri ajal, lihtne.Kofeiin peaks enamike inimeste kehadest kaduma ca. 10h jooksul. Seetõttu usun, et hommikused kohvitarbimised ei pruugi mõjutada kreatiini omastamist, kui kreatiini võtmine ja kohvi tarbimine on piisavalt suure vahega.
Pean veel uurima veidi juurde, kui pikk on kreatiini omastamise periood erinevate koguste ja modifitseerivate ainete koosmõjul. Võimalik, et mistahes ajahetkel päeva jooksul kofeiini tarbimine võib negatiivselt kreatiini omastamist mõjutada kui ühekordne kreatiinidoos võib veel kümneid tunde hiljem omastamise protsessis olla.
Sinu soovitus on muidugi kõige lihtsam ja loogilisem. Aga usun, et kõik ei taha kohvist loobuda. Kasvõi selle pärast, et kohvi tarbimine võib pakkuda võrreldavad või isegi suuremat mõju kehalisele võimekusele kui kreatiin. Ehk võta kreatiini ilma kohvita või lihtsalt joo kohvi enne trenni – ning võimekus võib olla suuresti sama.
Pigem ma järeldan, et sinu poolt toodud uuringu puhul oli kofeiini mõju selles, et laadimisprotsess oli häiritud ning keha kreatiinitase lihtsalt oluliselt ei tõusnud.Vastupidi, minu viidatud töös vaadeldi põhjalikult lihase fosfokreatiinisisaldust ja seda kofeiin ei halvendanud (tegelikult loodeti et parandab).
Kofeiin blokeerib kreatiini mõju lihase lõdvestumiskiirusele, seda on mujal ka uuritud ja ilmselt on asi selles. Aga seal on teatav viivitus, nii et kreatiinilaadimine + ühekordne kofeiin + kiirelt trenni annab selleks üheks korraks positiivse efekti.
Minu pakutud uuringu põhjal toimus kreatiini laadimine ilma probleemideta ning kofeiini mõju ainult võimendas hilisemat kehalist võimekust kuna kreatiin tase oli juba kehas kõrge ning laadimisprotsess lõppenud.“Our results provide further evidence to support the
assertion that the ergogenic effects of creatine on highintensity
performance are not negatively influenced by
acute caffeine ingestion.
Siin ongi rõhk sõnadel acute caffeine ingestion.
Vähe on neid kes võtavad kohvi ainult korra pika vaheaja tagant.
Kofeiin peaks enamike inimeste kehadest kaduma ca. 10h jooksul.Minu viidatud uuringus püsis kofeiini negatiivne mõju veel päev hiljem.
Ega mul väga vahet pole, ma ei tunne kreatiinist midagi
Minu viidatud uuringus püsis kofeiini negatiivne mõju veel päev hiljem.Ega mul väga vahet pole, ma ei tunne kreatiinist midagi
 kofeiini tarbimine regulaarselt muudab kuidagi kehasiseseid protsesse püsivalt, mis halvendavad kreatiini kasutamise võimekust? </p>
<p> Tundub, et ühekordsed kofeiini doosid ei mõjuta midagi. Isegi väga suurtes kogustes. Aga millegi pärast regulaane kasutamine mõjutab. Kuigi päevade jooksul omandatud kogused ei erine ning koffeiin kehas kuhjuda ei tohiks vaid isegi väga palju varu pakkudes ei tohiks kauem kui 24h süsteemis olla.</p>
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Ilmselt pole asi otseselt kofeiinis vaid tema mõjul toimuvas. See üks artikkel pakkus et kaltsiumi vallandamises.
Mul igastähes juhe koos.Minu pikk Inglise-keelne postitus antud teemal, ühes teises foorumis. Ning ühe eksperdi arvamus teemal.
I found two general studies that seem to look into this fairly well. And while they aren’t set up identically, some conclusions can be drawn. Problematically I don’t have access to full texts, so I can’t do a more deep analysis. I also found some other studies and papers on related subjects, but I’m having a hard time making solid conclusions about the negative effects of regular high caffeine dosing and creatine supplementation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8929583
“The data show that Cr supplementation elevates muscle PCr concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21207054
“The present study determined that caffeine ingestion after creatine supplements augmented intermittent high-intensity sprint performance.”
—
Now what I understand from this is that a single high amount acute dose of caffeine did not cancel out the positive effects of creatine. (although I don’t quite read out if we can say it didn’t reduce the positive effect at all). However a regular dosing for several days, seems to cancel out creatine’s positive effects almost completely. So what’s the deal?
Caffeine shouldn’t stay in the organism that long. I’d say 10-24h-s. Which means, there shouldn’t be much overlap from day to day consumption. Definitely not significantly higher caffeine concentrations in the body compared to the high acute dose given in the second study.
It also doesn’t look like the actual loading process of creatine into the muscles were hampered by caffeine ingestion, but simply that it’s eventual use and beneficial effects were somehow negated. Possibly due to the effect caffeine has on muscle relaxation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11796658
“It is concluded that Caf intake (3 days) prolongs muscle RT(relaxe time) and by this action overrides the shortening of RT due to creatine supplementation.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10066694
“It is concluded that Cr loading facilitates the rate of muscle relaxation during brief isometric muscle contractions without affecting torque production”
There is speculation that there is something about regular caffeine dosing that promotes the release of calcium in the muscle which prevents it from relaxing as well (though I don’t quite understand how regular caffeine intake does not lower overall performance in everyone, just negates creatine benefits in those who supplement). I’ve read some subject on the matter and while most is done on animals. There seems to be truth to this – but I don’t quite understand all of it.
Looks like sodium intake can have something to do with all this as-well.
“Muscle cells have the ability to trap creatine. One molecule of creatine requires two molecules of sodium to enter the muscle cell. Higher intracellular sodium levels can cause secondary increases in intracellular calcium. Higher levels of intracellular calcium cause a more forceful muscle contraction. Creatine has been shown to shorten muscle relaxation time during repeated rapid contractions,”
http://jap.physiology.org/content/86/3/840.long
“The rate of cross-bridge detachment and the decay of cytoplasmic Ca2+ by sarcoplasmic Ca2+-ATPase activity are the major determinants of human skeletal muscle relaxation rate (8, 11). However, in regard to the action of Cr supplementation on muscle relaxation, sarcoplasmic Ca2+-ATPase is likely to be the primary site of regulation. A very tight structural and functional coupling exists between Cr-kinase and Ca2+-ATPase activity within muscle sarcoplasmic reticulum (3, 31). Cr kinase serves to optimize free energy of ATP hydrolysis by maintaining a low concentration of free ADP, which is very critical to Ca2+-ATPase pump efficacy (11, 20,21, 31). In this particular context, the current findings might indicate that the biochemical adaptations induced by Cr loading at the level of the sarcoplasmic reticulum, presumably the rise in local phosphocreatine concentration (12, 13, 16, 28), may allow sarcoplasmic Ca2+-ATPase to operate at a higher thermodynamic efficiency and thereby facilitate muscle relaxation.”
However this paper discusses that the effect of caffeine by itself has no negative effects on Ca2 handling. Which is in line with most anecdotal evidence. As coffee drinkers in general do not experience lower performance levels in the gym.
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/conten…R1512.full.pdf
—
Some animal studies, human studies and other papers that I really don’t even understand that well, but might give some insight to something.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science…06362396004818
“These results suggest that, when the cell membrane is in the resting state, Ca2+ enters the cytoplasm by a leaky pathway and enters storage sites through Ca2+-ATPase. Furthermore, when the cell membrane is depolarized for a short period (less than 1 min), Ca2+entry occurs, leading to refilling of the Ca2+ storage sites utilized by caffeine. The retention of Ca2+ in the storage sites in the Ca2+-free condition in tenia coli was less relative to the position in vascular smooth muscle.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science…06291X8580019X
“Effects of ruthenium red and caffeine (a Ca2+ release blocker and an inducer, respectively) on Ca2+ uptake by sarcoplasmic reticulum (SR) vesicles and formation of the phosphorylated intermediate (EP) of the Ca2+-ATPase were studied using fast-kinetic techniques. Ruthenium red increased the rate and the maximum level of EP formation, while caffeine decreased both. Similarly, ruthenium red accelerated rapid Ca2+ uptake, while caffeine inhibited it. These drugs affected EP formation also with detergent solubilized Ca2+-ATPase. The concentrations required for half maximal effects on these functions (0.2 μM ruthenium red, 1.0 mM caffeine) are about the same as those for altering Ca2+ release. These results indicate that these reagents affect both the Ca2+-pump as well as the Ca2+ release mechanism, suggesting that the Ca2+-pump and Ca release have some mechanisms in common.”
I’m fairly confused to the exact conclusions to be drawn from all this. It appears that regular caffeine intake modifies our body’s Ca2+ handling which by itself will have not much effect. But as creatine supplementation also modifies Ca2 handling, it would appear these two processes are counterproductive and largely cancel each-other out.
I have no idea at which doses the caffeine begins it’s negative effect nor at what time period it becomes apparent. So a lot of speculation still.
Foorumi eksperdi arvates:
“There have been two or three laboratory studies with humans that have pointed to the possible inhibitory effects of caffeine independent of timing and at least one other with rodents that showed it reduced muscle phosphocreatine. It does not affect absorption nor does the inhibitory effect have anything to do with diuresis as some think. Beyond the rodent study not really being physiologically relevant, the two human studies commonly cited have some limitations such that the results should be taken with caution; including the studies being very short term, doses used (5 mg/kg bw), unknown training and stimulant experience of the subjects and the use of laboratory tests that creatine hasn’t always done well with vs. using relevant in-the-gym tests. There are at least two other studies that used more relevant testing methods (intense cycling) that didn’t result in impairment. Also acute ingestion of caffeine and creatine likely does not have the same negative performance effect as high dose chronic caffeine intake along side creatine loading as shown by one study that examined muscle relaxation times and those that loaded subjects with creatine and then gave them caffeine before performance testing. This is something that really needs to be fleshed out with relevant resistance training tests. Did I say relevant enough?”
